The Life after Death Forum

This is a place to specifically debate aspects of the above.

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leecol
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Post by leecol » Wed Dec 05, 2007 8:14 pm

Hiya Folks,

Jane wrote:
As for what you say regarding evidence for the truth of events recorded in the Bible, Your statements are more than fair. The Bible has been re written many times over the centuries with things added and things taken away, some faiths re-wrote it to suit their particular teachings, in other words same stories different versions.
Spot on Jane! :wink: That is just one of many good reasons, I do not take what the Bible decrees as literal.

I still find the the Old Testament and the New Testament, totally at odds with one another. The former prattles on about a nasty vengeful God, who likes to kick non- believers Arse! :lol: The latter book being the proverbial contradiction of the former! :?

Where the nasty God impregnates a human woman with his son!
Who will eventually becomes the sacrificial lamb for all human kind. Thereby absolving mankind's Sins via the death of his own son?................ Sorry this story really does not make any sense whatsoever! :? Too me that is!

I could on and on, however I would like to hear from the other side of the fence first.
Without deviation from the norm, progress is not possible- Frank Zappa.
To negatively criticize another man's thoughts without first criticizing one's own, it is an act of aggression, a form of psychological terrorism, and an immoral behaviour Larry Gowdy

hoppe
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Post by hoppe » Fri Dec 07, 2007 4:38 pm

Hello Jane,
Thank you for your welcome, I also respect other people and what they believe is up to them, but I certainly do not agree with their beliefs, as you would expect. I do not believe “that all roads lead to Rome” this is mans thinking, perhaps a way to promote toleration between faiths. I personally would never persecute anyone for what they believe; it’s not for me to judge. But Just consider this for example, do you believe it’s the same God that says “do not kill” and “love thy neighbour as yourself in both O.T and N.T.” as the one who desires people to become a suicide bomber and blow innocent people to bits and then reward them with a place in paradise?, or the God who reincarnates people and sends them back as an animal or something, it just does not make sense to me. If a man chopped down a tree carved it into an image and fell down and worshipped it as a God, and of course some still do, would we call it a religion or a superstition? People have done this for years and of course they have a right as a human being to believe what they want, we all have free will.
There are some very good people like you it seems and also some very wicked with many in between but when we find ourselves in certain situations even the good like the majority of Germans in the Second World War for example can become bad and betray their neighbours whom they have known and been friends with for many years, in a lot of cases God forbid we may do the same, its called self preservation.

I am classed as a heretic by the established church because I do not believe in the devil or the trinity or the immortality of the soul and although that is a matter of interpretation, years ago I would have been persecuted for my beliefs and so would many bible scholars like for example Sir Isaac Newton and that’s what I and I suspect you object to, why should anybody persecute anybody else for what they believe. “Vengeance is mine says the Lord I will repay.”

And there’s nothing wrong with that statement except today man thinks he is so clever and so arrogant that no one has the right to tell him what to do. God is the potter we are the clay and our maker can do what he likes with his rebellious children. It’s like our own children if we don’t teach them right from wrong and respect for others they grow up to be hooligans and uncontrollable and if you’re a mother you will know that. Lee’s remark about a nasty vengeful God is just not true and shows an ignorance of the way God gently tried to guide his people with love and tenderness to keep his ways so that they would prosper and be blessed (see Deut. ch.28) but they rebelled and went further and further away, just allow me to quote you two passages

2Ch 36:15 Yahweh, the God of their fathers, sent to them by his messengers, rising up early and sending, because he had compassion on his people, and on his dwelling place:
2Ch 36:16 but they mocked the messengers of God, and despised his words, and scoffed at his prophets, until the wrath of Yahweh arose against his people, until there was no remedy.
Also

Hos 11:1 When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt.
Hos 11:2 the more the prophets called them, the more they went from them: they sacrificed unto the Baalim, and burned incense to graven images.(false Babylonian gods)
Hos 11:3 yet I taught Ephraim to walk; I took them on my arms; but they knew not that I healed them.
Hos 11:4 I drew them with cords of a man, with bands of love; and I was to them as they that lift up the yoke on their jaws; and I laid food before them.
Hos 11:5 They shall not return into the land of Egypt; but the Assyrian shall be their king, because they refused to return to me.
Then he says

Hos 11:8 How shall I give thee up, Ephraim? how shall I cast thee off, Israel? how shall I make thee as Admah? how shall I set thee as Zeboiim?(these were cities near Sodom and Gomorrah now buried in the Dead sea) My heart is turned within me, my compassions are kindled together.
Hos 11:9 I will not execute the fierceness of mine anger, I will not return to destroy Ephraim: for I am God, and not man; the Holy One in the midst of thee; and I will not come in wrath.

And there are many such passages, you see we are not dealing with a being who is just a God of love as the church proclaims there is another side which will not tolerate evil clearly my friend Lee has not seen the whole picture,
Sorry another quote from Exodus concerning Moses,

Exo 34:6 And the LORD passed by before him, and proclaimed, The LORD, The LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth,
Exo 34:7 Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty;
so we have a God of love and a God of severity and that’s how it is (I believe) whether we like it or not.


After that ramble it brings me to my main point and that is the true nature of man, you see, I like you I have no faith in human nature, the humanistic church says that we are all intrinsically good in nature whereas the bible says the very opposite, I won’t quote it but if you are interested look them up for your self, Mark 7:21-23. And Galatians 5:19-23.

I like you have not broken the law or deliberately hurt anybody I have helped people bent over backwards for them (not literally of course!) but in return have received abuse and pain. My wife divorced me in 1991 on the grounds of religion, fair enough you might say, I was so hurt I left her the house and gave her money for her and the children only to find out a month later that her long time lover had moved in! my children ended up with me and help me a great deal ( I have developed a serious illness which might prevent me from going back to work, which I won’t go into).I’ve had my share of tragedy my father committed suicide on Christmas day by jumping off a block of flats due to deep depression. You can imagine the range of emotions one goes through when these things happen. Plus other things that I will not bore you with.

So perhaps you can see why I buried my head in this book to find out if it was true and if there was any hope, but that’s the only way to understand it, and its quite sad to read “sweeping statements” as my friend Lee has in his last post about things he clearly has not understood, sorry Lee mate, I will reply to you in a while (your really keeping me busy I think I would rather be back at work!).

Anyway Jane sorry about my ramble but it is not possible to prove these things to you or anyone, I only know that I have somehow been looked after and cared for like a child who is loved and disciplined (see Heb.12:5-11). I only try to get people to give it a go for themselves only then will they see it.

May I just say about your second post much of what you say I agree with, except religious education is nothing much at all? But you are right about the modifications that have been made to the Bible over the years, there are many different versions available now and some show bias to particular interpretations of passages, although they are minor with only the odd word or phrase here and there, the popular N.I.V. is one, the Mormons have their own which they say does not contradict the Bible, I invited them in when they knocked on my door and proved to them that it did so they just said “well we have the spirit and are right you are wrong” and they walked out!
The J.Ws teach what the watchtower people say and the one’s I’ve spoken to don’t have much Bible knowledge at all? But can you show me one bible that is so radically different that it tells a completely different story, I don’t think so, but its always best to go back to the earliest actual Hebrew and Greek manuscripts to find out what it actually says (it’s a bit of a challenge for a thick carpenter) but if I can do it anyone can.

Finally one of the reasons I went into this was because of one vs. in Hebrews 11 which talks about Abraham who lived some 2000 yrs. B.C. which says “for he was looking forward to the city which has foundations whose builder and maker is God”
And when you think about that and what it actually means, it is what most people want but they do not know it is on offer. I want to live in a world where there is no crime no drugs no pain no fighting for food or starving children, when we spend billions on arms, and so on, we have our priorities wrong, if only we followed Gods laws they were made for our benefit. The church thinks it can change the world by teaching Gods word but they clearly can’t.
The Bible starts with Eden and ends with Eden, it has a beginning and an end and we are nearly there, its put in terms of a woman having a baby the pains are light at first but get worse and worse until they are unbearable but as soon as the baby is born the pain is virtually forgotten for the joy of the little bundle in its mothers arms, I know I been there when my four were born and I’ve still got the scars on my leg from my wife’s nails to prove it, but with the joy came sorrow when my eldest daughter died, but that’s life.

The world is like that now it is getting worse and worse until as it says “men’s hearts shall fail them for fear for what is coming on the earth” and that is beginning to happen with global warming threatening our planet, terrorism and Armageddon fast approaching in the middle east (as predicted in the O.T. with Russia Iran and all the Arab states 60 million Arabs against 6 million Jews) whose going to win when God intervenes and says enough is enough and now you will live my way. (see Acts 17:30-31)
I wish you all the best and leave you with this quote which is on wall of the N.A.T.O. headquarters


They shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more. Isa.2:4

hoppe
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Post by hoppe » Fri Dec 07, 2007 4:46 pm

hello lee,
I’m going to talk about your first reply on Dec 4, you accuse me of “making a quite sweeping statement” about you not having read or applying your mind to understanding it, but then you go on to say
“Ok, I will not pretend to have studied all of the bible as to applying my mind to it that is just your opinion.
So 1, you have to admit it was not a sweeping statement it was a true statement you have not read it all, which you have to to understand it.

And 2, if you had have applied your mind to it you would not have come out with such ignorant and abusive things as you did in your reply to Jane, it is very clear that you do not understand it and it seems or even want to. If you had said that sort of thing to a Muslim they would probably issued a fatwa against you, but being a Christian I forgive and forget because its God you insulted, not me, and he is quite capable of defending himself if he wants to.

3, You say “I have not seen or read/heard about any evidence that suggests the bible is truth. Or that any predictions from revelations,( by that I suppose you mean the book of Revelation / the apocalypse) have come to pass.

The book of Revelation is widely accepted as a “continuous historical” document from approx A.D.96 onwards, that can only be understood by knowing the symbols and types used in the O.T. for ex. Egypt and Babylon are both called a “dragon” and they were pagan and persecuted Israel, in Rev. pagan Imperial Rome is the dragon (ch.12) which persecuted the early Christian people. The beast has its origins in the important ch.7 in Daniel. And is seen to be “pseudo Christian Rome” brought about by the Emperor Constantine from312 onwards, any history book will tell you this.
The little horn spoken of in Daniel 7 is shown to be the papacy in Rev.13:1-10 i.e. the western papal system called the beast of the sea, from vs.11 to the end it explains. The beast of the earth which is obviously the eastern Roman Empire which was formed by Constantine who moved the empire east because Rome was being invaded by the Goths, Visigoths, Vandals, Huns and Gaul’s, and called it Constantinople. This formed the two legs of the image in Daniel ch.2. It was finally overthrown in 1453 by the Ottoman Empire. From then on the pope’s power began to wane in the west as the reformation took hold, northern Europe became mainly Lutheran. England under Henry the 8th Elizabeth the 1st and then James the 1st became protestant (and that’s why Britain has always remained separate from Europe and is always linked to America)
The end of papal dominance came with the conquests of Napoleon and the French revolution in 1789 and so in 1870 the pope claimed that when he sat on his throne he spoke on behalf of God? This is history that you cannot deny.

The book is divided into 3 parts the “seal” judgments the “Trumpet” judgments and the “vial” judgments (but of course you know all this because you suggest when I said you haven’t applied your mind to understanding these things, you said “that is just your opinion”)

Most people who study this book including very intelligent men like Sir Isaac Newton believe the “7 seals” dealt with pagan Rome until the political earthquake ended it (Constantine 325 A.D.) The “7 trumpets” dealt with pseudo Christian Rome to1453 and which ended with another political earthquake, and finally the “7 vials” deal with papal Rome, (for reasons I said in a previous post)
We are now in the 6th vial because the symbolic “drying up of the Euphrates happened in 1914 when the British army took Palestine from the Turks, and Balfor got the mandate to govern the land for Britain, while the French took Lebanon.
.
Now we await the 7th which brings the collapse of symbolic Babylon i.e. Europe the reformed Roman Empire i.e. the catholic dominated E.U. And the end of mans misrule and unbelief, another political earthquake and real ones.
.
The woman in ch.17 is the apostate church She is the harlot sitting on the beast dressed in scarlet and purple (remind you of any one? see vs.4) seen on minted coins holding a baby (the Queen of heaven and mother of God?) issued by the E.U.

The rest goes on to speak about future events which are gradually coming together, Turmoil in the Middle East, a resurgent Russia and a rebellious Europe and the whole collapse of society.

I do not think you will agree with any of this because you simply do not want to believe it, that’s your problem not mine.

As for evidence
1, study the history of the Jews, as Peter the Great the Czar of Russia said if you want to see the evidence of God study the history of the Jews. See Deut 28.

2, Go to the British museum and see for yourself the artefacts’ that have been dug up from Egypt Babylon Rome and else where on which their kings describe their victory’s over the kings of Israel and Judah with many of their names are inscribed, I’ve even seen the one in Israel with the name of Pontus Pilate inscribed, things which prove the history of the bible, test them for yourself if you dare.. Sceptic in the 19th century did not believe Babylon actually existed then some German archaeologists dug it up and you can see the Ishta gate and various walls made from bricks with their symbolic lion stamped on it (see Dan. 7:4 and Rev.13:2.) also the name of king Nebuchadnezzar inscribed. These are facts you cannot deny which prove that the history of Israel is true, and there is much more beside this for example read David Rohl’s book called the test of time, but of course you won’t?

Finally old mate the greatest fulfilment of prophecy in our time is the return of Israel to their land in 1948/9, people have been waiting for this for hundreds of years (historical fact) and it was spoken about by many O.T. prophets Ezekiel 37 is just one good example “the valley of dry bones” this was spoken about 550 B.C. even before the Romans sold them around the then known world in A.D.70. This is historical fact of which much is written.

The whole history of the Jews return started in the 1870/80s with men like Theodor Herzl and Chaim Weizmann who push for the return but only a few responded, the land was desert with malaria swamps a wasteland through which Arabs used to travel to get to the dome of the rock which they built on the site of the ruined Jewish temple, hence the trouble now, then the First World War came along which brought the return a bit closer because Britain had the mandate and promised to give the land to the scattered Jews but still they did not go back. Finally Hitler came to power and after the events of the terrible Second World War finally they were driven back.
1, It shows the stubbornness of the Jews to believe what God has told them.
2, It shows what human nature is really like and mans inhumanity to man.
3, To many who have ears to hear and eyes to see it shows the unseen hand of God at work to bring about the time when he reveals himself to all.

If you are at all interested read the following Psm.83, Ezek.22:33-38. Ezek.36 note vs.2 Ezek 37 to 39. Zech 12 to 14. N.T. Luke 21:24-28. 1 Cor.15:20-26. Romans 11 (which proves J.Ws. wrong) Heb.2 (which shows why “his son” had to die, note especially vs.14, note in connection Acts 2:24) and finally the most beautiful of all, which I know you will not read or believe Rev.21:1-9.

Lastly what was that untrue quote you wrote at the end?
Humility is not a passive state of acceptance.
Humility is an aggressive state of seeking!

Humility means a state of being humble, modest, self abased or submissive; an act of submission (quoted from Nuttall,s dictionary)
It has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with aggression.
According to an English expert I spoke to.

I now think I have said enough on this site if anyone wants to talk privately and sensibly about the things I have said you have my email address and I will happily try to help to explain your question, but only if you are interested, if I get abusive or blasphemous mail I shall simply delete it.

I wish you all a happy Christ-mass around your pagan phallic symbol of male fertility and rebirth, the tree, as you celebrate the birth of Jesus which of course did not occur on Dec.25. Anyway happy christmas to you all

So I leave you with this quote
“He who has ears to hear let him hear”

So goodbye to you all and God bless. Pete

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leecol
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Post by leecol » Fri Dec 07, 2007 7:51 pm

eye Folks

Pete wrote:
I’m going to talk about your first reply on Dec 4, you accuse me of “making a quite sweeping statement” about you not having read or applying your mind to understanding it, but then you go on to say
“Ok, I will not pretend to have studied all of the bible as to applying my mind to it that is just your opinion.
So 1, you have to admit it was not a sweeping statement it was a true statement you have not read it all, which you have to to understand it.
I was referring to the ' applying my mind to understand,' part of your statement! As you do not know my mind/ brains properly, neither are you directly aware of my cognitive ability or lack of it. How do you know??? I could read the Bible back to front a million times Pete. It does not mean I would end up agreeing with what the scriptures actually say. Just because I have not studied a religious text as closely as you. It does not automatically follow I cannot understand or form a reasonable opinion based on common sense. Yet you make the assumption, my ability to interpret the bible is suspect. Partly on my limited (compared to your good self), read knowledge. Partly from your inference, I would not understand, even if I read the book several times. I find the latter inference a clear example as a sweeping statement, for reasons I have already clearly stated.

A lot of what human beings act on is mere speculation and filling in the gaps. This is how the human brain works; it will fill in any gaps of knowledge. With speculation, based on existing evidence and past learning/ experience. Ok this may not be ideal, however most of a human kinds science and knowledge started off as speculation. The salient point being, I or anyone else for that matter. Could read the bible once, or parts of it. Yet still come to a reasonable conclusion or opinion, that maybe correct or more accurate. Then someone that has studied the bible for years. Remember, bias comes into this as well Pete. A lot of the Bible is a matter of faith, not a matter of reality or indeed fact (I use the term 'fact,' loosely).

Can the Bible give me concise instructions for building a Nuclear Submarine? Can the Bible tell me how to make salt and how to test for the presence of salt? Can the Bible furnish me the necessary instructions on how to save someone’s life, whilst they are having a heart attack? Does the Bible explain gravitation? How the Universe works on the Macro and Micro scopic level?

The answer to all these questions is obviously NO! So for me personally, the Bible does not furnish me with any useful information. That I can test myself and verify against the reality that I know. Ok not all of the above examples are in terms of direct experience. However they are in a logical and self consistent way, which has supporting evidence to back up the theory/ ideas.

Pete wrote:

And 2, if you had have applied your mind to it you would not have come out with such ignorant and abusive things as you did in your reply to Jane, it is very clear that you do not understand it and it seems or even want to. If you had said that sort of thing to a Muslim they would probably issued a fatwa against you, but being a Christian I forgive and forget because its God you insulted, not me, and he is quite capable of defending himself if he wants to.

Ummmm, what are you exactly referring to here Pete?

I take it you mean this comment?
I still find the the Old Testament and the New Testament, totally at odds with one another. The former prattles on about a nasty vengeful God, who likes to kick non- believers Arse! The latter book being the proverbial contradiction of the former!

Where the nasty God impregnates a human woman with his son!
Who will eventually becomes the sacrificial lamb for all human kind. Thereby absolving mankind's Sins via the death of his own son?................ Sorry this story really does not make any sense whatsoever! Too me that is!
Ok, fair comment Pete, my comments did come across as abrasive and dismissive. I apologise, there was no offence intended. It is just my screwy dry sense of humour, it does come across as being abusive sometimes. :cry:

However, I think you overreacted slightly there. If the situations were reversed, and you wrote: “Atheists are brutal sinners with no sense of moral justice or moral fibre!" I would have just found the remarks amusing and comical, not in the least abusive
Also you have not addressed the three points I made in the afore mentioned OP. You have only claimed I am being abusive I have apologised if my comments came across as such. So moving on, can you care to address my observations I made.


If you had said that sort of thing to a Muslim they would probably issued a fatwa against you, but being a Christian I forgive and forget because its God you insulted, not me, and he is quite capable of defending himself if he wants to.
Have I insulted God? Or just faith and human misinterpretation of natural events? How can I insult God, if I do not believe in him? That does not make logical sense! That’s like saying to a child, that doll your are playing with, which you think is alive. Is made of plastic and is very much inactive. Am I insulting the Doll, urrrrrrrg no, I am questioning the child’s belief.
As to why a plastic Doll would have feelings or consciousness.

Do not get me wrong, I respect everyone’s faith. As long as it is not forced onto others, or used as an excuse to subjugate or abuse others.

Also the references you gave, from the Bible, were cherry picked by yourself. Suggesting that the Old Testament God, was non vengeful and non hateful, is of course a matter of your bias. I find it strange; you have forgotten to include the more violent references and vengeful God references. That anyone with any sense can see for themselves.

The Bible has helped you through hard times Pete and has given you a unique perspective on life. I think we can both agree on that Pete, for you on a personal level. The Bible has provided you with excellent support, and taught you something about yourself and the world around you.

However, everyone is different, we all think and feel differently and have been through experiences. That indeed shape and form the way we see and experience the world around us.

Sorry mate, to put all my belief into a book that has been written by many different hands. Over many different epochs of time, under different social-political circumstances. Basically a book written by human beings with human foibles and predjuces, not by a God! Ok, you may argue, that the recorded words are the words of God. Hang on there, who recorded the words? Who wrote the words? Who copied and rewrote the words of God. Human beings, therefore the words of God become corrupted and diluted throughout history. Therefore how can anyone make any claims based on a book, whose information is purely anecdotal at best? Even on these basic grounds, I find the whole idea flimsy at best. Why do we need a God, to tell us how to be altruistic or love thy neighbor? The answer is we do not! These are already natural parts of our and the animal kingdoms behavourival makeup.

Pete wrote:
Lastly what was that untrue quote you wrote at the end?
Humility is not a passive state of acceptance.
Humility is an aggressive state of seeking!
The quote is only untrue in the literal context. However, the quote was not meant to be taken literally. The quote only applies to my own ways of dealing with the world I see and experience.

In effect the quote could be considered a bit of a joke on how people perceive humility. Humility in the dictionary definition
means a state of being humble, modest, self abased or submissive; an act of submission (quoted from Nuttall,s dictionary)
Yep no problems so far! However to me, it is also an aggressive way of seeking. When I say aggressive I mean active or a vigorous way of attaining information. On the surface one may seem..... Humble or Meek indeed submissive. However, part of this is only a mask or a deception so to speak. Humbleness masks the real intent of active information gathering. Being humble actually helps the process of information gathering, as you are more open. Yet this can also act as a mask, where you are in fact quite aggressive in information retrieval. Yet to the outside world, you are humble, non aggressive, modest and submissive. Underneath you can be an aggressive gatherer, using the humble mask as a form of counter intelligence.
This mask could even be employed against yourself, or aspects of yourself that may indeed inhibit the task of un-biased information gathering.

So as you can now hopefully appreciate, there is a very concise and logical though personal reason for the signature.

BTW Pete, I did warn you before hand, you would have to be prepared for debate and challenge. You must remember not to take things too personally or too much to heart. This is after all just a forum, not an ideological battleground. I know from personal experience, as I have done this in the past.

Cheers Lee.
Without deviation from the norm, progress is not possible- Frank Zappa.
To negatively criticize another man's thoughts without first criticizing one's own, it is an act of aggression, a form of psychological terrorism, and an immoral behaviour Larry Gowdy

hoppe
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Post by hoppe » Sun Dec 09, 2007 11:17 am

[img]
Reply to Lee,
Hi Lee mate,

Some of the things you say in your reply I do understand and agree with but some I don’t, I certainly do not wish to demean your intelligence I think you are an extremely intelligent person, but I don’t quite understand your sense of humour!(laughing smiley) I still can’t get them to work or my avatar?

However I will reply to your letter but at the moment I am snowed under with other letters and emails to write which are important so please be patient, I will get back to you.

Just one point though as you say “the bible is a matter of faith” and of course your right but there is a lot of historical proof of Old Testament things which I have seen first hand, and prophecy that has historically been fulfilled, but evolution is equally a matter of faith with so many missing links, and in both cases we were not there to say one way or another, and evolution is still only a theory that has been accepted by people because its easier than being told how to live by a creator who we cannot see. So I cannot argue the truth of the bible indeed or prove it, I am not suppose to, just state what it says try to correct peoples misunderstandings of of the scriptures (as I see them) and leave the rest up to them to follow up if they are interested.

So I will speak to you soon, keep working hard the Q.E.H. need men like you.
Kind regards Pete.

Luke 9:4 Keep it simple; you are the equipment. And no luxury inns--get a modest place and be content there until you leave.
If you're not welcomed, leave town. Don't make a scene. Shrug your shoulders and move on."
[/img] 8)

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leecol
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Post by leecol » Sun Dec 09, 2007 2:41 pm

Hiya Pete,

Many thanks for replying back to me chap. :D I hope you get better soon mate. It would be good to see you back at work at some point.

If you can't get your Avatar on still, just send it to Stefan ( Navigator) and he can put it on for you. Your smileys should work chap? :?

Just left click over the smiley icon you want to use, then a symbol should appear. Where your cusor was on the sentence, or where you want to place the smiley. If not, just give me phone call and I will talk you through it. :)

BTW I agree a lot of current evolutionary theory is lacking or is stuck in the dark ages. However I leave that one for another day and another thread.

Kindest regards Lee.
Without deviation from the norm, progress is not possible- Frank Zappa.
To negatively criticize another man's thoughts without first criticizing one's own, it is an act of aggression, a form of psychological terrorism, and an immoral behaviour Larry Gowdy

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